What is the FAILephant?
Posted on August 31st, 2009 by Jason Rosenbaum in Profits Before People
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The Republican party is trying to change the conversation and kill health care.
Along with their lobbyist friends, using inflammatory lies about health care reform, they're whipping their political base into a rage. That base, duly enraged, has been armed with disruptive tactics and told to yell and scream at their elected representatives. And thus, you get this:
Take the anger to the next level, and it gets worse, with guns outside of Obama's town halls and swastikas:
Not to mention Representatives cast as the devil or hung in effigy.
None of this is about health care, yet this is what the Republican party wants to be talking about. It indicates an utter failure on behalf of the party to come up with any solution to any problem facing the nation, let alone our health care crisis.
To date, the Republicans have yet to release a plan for health care. They've released about a half-dozen pieces of paper they call plans, but none of them are detailed enough to be called serious. And yet, instead of debating health care reform with those who recognize the crisis, Republicans are instead having their base protest against "socialized medicine" and "government control of health care" - plans that do not exist.
Thus, the FAILephant. Carried along by tea bags, the angry Republican party presents no solutions, only rage. It's an epic failure of politics, and it's dragging our country's discourse down.
Let's get back to talking about the real issues, like whether we should have a pubic health insurance option or not. It's no use debating with Republicans and their extreme followers - they're not interested.
So, if you see examples of GOP failure like this, post them on twitter with the hashtag #failephant. We'll be collecting them and putting them out to the larger twitter universe.
They are rich, selfish and hateful and overwhelming white republicans who voted for George Bush twice as he continually gave them tax cuts that almost destroyed the USA financially and otherwise.
They are a failure, but to ignorant to understand.
They are now afraid that they will be required to pay a fair share to get the USA back on track.
Since the early 1870's and a simple political cartoon an elephant (Republicans) and donkey (Democrats) have been used to represent the two parties. The Elephant = never forget and scared of everything including a mouse. The donkey = stubborn and carries the load.
The FAILephant signifies the Republicans (elephants) desire to make health care reform FAIL.
You're correct. Unlike the stubborn donkeys that never seem to be able to learn anything from history, the elephants have never forgotten that communism doesn't work.
Why don't you try a trip to any former Soviet-bloc country and see how they feel about this health care plan?
Our health care ranks 36th in the world, just ahead of Slovenia, which used to be a part of Yugoslavia, which was part of the former Soviet-bloc.
No one is suggesting government ownership of the means of supplying health care, which is what "socialized medicine" means. The Republicans are trying to scare you with that claim, as if a government insurance plan - even if it did drive all private insurers under - would be the same thing. It is not.
The point of this website is that we are spending gigantic amounts of money on healthcare and not getting the health benefit we should - in other words, the market is broken.
Let's hear some market-based ways to fix it from the Republicans. Everyone acknowledges that there is a problem. Be part of the solution.
Ranks 36th according to whom?
The 36th figure is from the 2000 World Health Organization study. It was questionnaire data only. Questions of MD,s patients and unspecified health care experts. Not a piece af date in the lot. No outcome measures. The Book Lives at Risk, 2002, John Goodman Ph.D. gives info on that study and compares the systems in the english speaking countries. The UK has half our 5 year survivability rate on breast cancer. Much worse for prostate cancer. 5% of Americans wait 4 months for surgery. Canada, NZ, the UK are in the 20%s. UK stops screening for Cancer when you are 70 ! ! It goes on and on. The quickest way to access this is the NCPA.org site. Please look into it. Also puts infant mortality, life expectancy etc. in perspective. Our outcomes are fabulous for all our extra money. Yes we need reform. Many times in editorials I have seen the bald faced lie that our outcomes are no better. Propaganda.Deceit. I write with evidence every time.
Thanks Kathleen,
The NCPA.org site is CLEARLY a conservative organization that is CLEARLY against anthing Obama and the Liberal Dems are trying to achieve.
Your post shows just how accurate the "failephant" description is.
Our health care system is "for profit".
The public option will be "For the people".
Yeah, LAZY PEOPLE!
Speaking as someone who lives in a country who has long has socialist health care (Australia), it works pretty well actually. Everyone I read about the scare-mongering going on in your country just makes me wonder what exactly you are all thinking. I mean, seriously, there are excellent examples of government-funded health care around the world, but you just don't seem able to see it beyond the self-induced fear. Socialism is not the same as fascism.
You're missing the point, why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? And who are these people that demand someone else pay for theirs? I don't care if you call it 'government funded' or 'socialized', our constitution does not give the government the right to take from one citizen and give to another.
Oh I get it…you are one of those folks that does not want to pay for the fire department until its your house that is on fire.
I gladly pay my taxes so that MY government can provide security for commerce and safetly OF ALL.
I gladly pay my taxes for programs that benefit ALL. Police, fire, military, infrastructure. But paying for someone elses doctor visits? If you want to go to the doctor, go. No one is stopping you. For years I didn't have insurance and had to pay out of pocket. If that ment I had to turn off cable, phone, internet, eat Top Ramen noodles twice a day, then that's what I did.
You obviously don't understand the concept of insurance. Healthcare is expensive. Much of the time it's too expensive for any individual to pay without going bankrupt or worse. Insurance is a workaround to that kind of problem.
Everytime you pay your car insurance premium you are:
a) helping pay for someone else's repair, etc
b) buying the right to have your (and anyone elses if you're at fault) ridiculously expensive repair costs covered
Try getting divorced from your spouse to avoid having your kids college funds emptied by medical costs. People are choosing between saving the life of a loved one, financial ruin, and fraud, not ramen vs. lasagna, dammit.
If you don't make enough money then you deserve to die. This is the stance of the Republican party (A.K.A. party of morality).
I'm thinking of starting a blog called "Republicans killed my friends and family". People can post their stories about which for-profit insurers dropped them or refused to cover them in their time of need. If Obama can't move forward with a public health care option history manipulators will say that he was against public health care for the U.S. We need to be very vocal about how the Republican party is destroying that option and it isn't Obama's fault.
Then what do you call welfare? I think it's just Republican's being the sore loser, meanwhile they didn't seem to bitch when Bush buried this country and sent our boys to an unnecessary war that maimed and killed them.
Heck you couldn't even wear an anti Bush shirt to his town hall meetings. Meanwhile these fanatics are toting guns at Obama's…
~ Navy Vet
You *do* realize that the places where people are carrying guns to town halls are also places open-carry is legal, correct?
Moreover, notice 2 things:
1) Nobody is being shot. Obviously, guns by themselves are not dangerous. And so be fair: the people carrying them aren't pulling the trigger either. They are "fanatics" in that they are "fans" of guns, sure - but that does not make them dangerous.
2) The original purpose of the Second Amendment was that the public would not only have the political means to keep government power in check, via the vote, the First Amendment, and so on - but also the *physical* means to do so, should the political means break-down.
As Ayn Rand observed, "There are only two means by which men can deal with one another: guns or logic. Force or persuasion. Those who know that they cannot win by means of logic, have always resorted to guns." "Guns" in her use is of course a reference to physical force, not a literal interpretation of the word. But again, no physical force is being used, and the only threat of force is towards those who would physically-harm the open-carriers; to assert any more threat than that would be illegal.
The Republicans' arguments against government healthcare have been of spotty quality; so too have the Democrats' arguments in favor of it.
Both sides are willing to enable rationing (basic economics demands we do so), both sides are ignoring the arguments against their own plans with respect to monetary costs. Democrats want equality of access, while ignoring the reduction in quality that must occur due to increased demand for medical services in absence of an increase in the number of doctors; Republicans want essentially to preserve the status-quo, which has proven a poor value.
And both sides are acting like idiots: the Republicans are mis-directing debate and misleading people, while the Democrats are either lying or grossly over-optimistic about the results they can achieve, and are not the least bit intellectually honest about their willingness to consider alternatives to a single-payer plan, as the hyperbolic response to John Mackey's opinion in the WSJ proved.
2 things.
1. Single payer was taken off the table at the very beginning of the debate, so it is rather disingenuous to claim Democrats are unwilling to consider other options.
2. One assault rifle carrying, townhall attendee is a proud member of a church whose pastor openly sermonizes about praying for the death of the president. You can understand if people don't think characterizing him as simply a second amendment proponent is entirely accurate.
I was always under the impression that the Second Amendment was intended to ensure that there would always be a "ready militia" to defend the people from incursions by foreign powers, not from their own government.
So you are happy to pay almost double for the cost of health care than every other industrialized nation just to be sure that poor people don't get any?
P.S. I'm pretty sure the constitution allows for the government to collect taxes which is "taking from one citizen to give to another."
Yes, I'm happy paying double so I can have the best doctors and nurses in the world. And this notion that "poor people" can't get health care is a bunch of BS. No one denied me access the health care when I was making $3.35 an hour. Did I have a hard time paying for it? Yes. Did I demand other people pay for it? No. And you need to read the constitution if you think taxes are for 'redistribution'
Did you ever have cancer when you were making $3.35 an hour and no insurance? Try going to the emergency room with stomach cancer and no insurance. I'm sure they will start emergency chemo and radiation therapy for you right away.
I did not say the purpose of taxes is redistribution, but if the government collects taxes, and uses it to pay for something, even something you support like the military, it is taking it from one citizen and giving it to another.
Maybe we should spend as much on "promoting the general welfare" as we do for "providing for a common defense".
Key difference in wording: Provide, Promote
I'm not talking about chemo, but catastrophic insurance is a great subject. That's where insurance should play a roll, like auto or home insurance. It's cheap because it only covers the big infrequent stuff, not every single cold, check-up, etc. And, No, it's not taking from one citizen and giving it to another, it's paying for a common service provided to every citizen, not just a particular group.
Your response indicates that you think all this extra money you pay goes to doctor's salaries. It doesn't. The majority goes to insurance administrators, lawyers, profits, and fraud. Doctors offices in the US employ a full time person whose only job is to deal with insurance company paperwork. In Canada that is unheard of.
Also your notion that US healthcare far outstrips the rest of the world in quality is not true. Healthcare in the US is very good, in some areas it beats other countries, in other areas it is behind. On average, patient outcomes are the same for most industrialized nations.
It is just a myth that the US care is much better.
You already pay for other people's health care.
You pay for it with your increasingly large health insurance premiums.
You pay for it in your taxes when under- and uninsured people use publicly-funded emergency rooms because they cannot afford to go to a clinic and cannot afford the health insurance most clinics require.
You pay for it in increased cost of goods when businesses have to pay larger and larger amounts to insure their employees.
You pay for it in these and many more hidden ways that are patently obvious when you stop listening to the deceivers who are trying to protect the obscene profits of the insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and their bought-and-paid-for political allies.
You are paying huge amounts for other's health care NOW. You WILL pay LESS when everyone is properly protected and has equal access to quality health care.
Let's make one thing certain. Insurance companies don't make "obscene profits." That is just a propagandized lie. They really don't. Their profit margins stay around 2-4%. So who wins if "Obamacare" passes? Us? In my opinion, no. The government, well if causing more and more out of control deficit is their goal, yes. Insurance companies? No. Big Pharmacy? Yes. I looked into these companies' profit margins and found something quite interesting. You see, while the insurance companies' profit margins never go above say 4.5%, the pharmaceutical companies' profit margins are all 25%+, which is the same as Microsoft's profit margin. So, under this government program, more people will go to the doctor, I know this because my university has a free clinic for students, which causes more prescriptions to be written and subsequently more prescriptions to be filled at taxpayer expense. I guarantee that big pharma will bring their prices up to milk this cow as much as they can before someone in Congress goes, "Oi Vey! This healthcare program is bankrupting us!" Then they'll form an investigative team, demonize the Republican party more, then realize that they've been giving big pharma a big government bailout, except it'l probably be called a grant. I think I'll write an article about this whenever Lockergnome comes back from being under maintenance.
One way to try and figure out what the potential costs of public healthcare will be would be to look at other countries that have already gone down this road and see what the effect is. Every other industrialized country has some type of public health care, and on average it is costing them 40% less than what the US pays. This is not to say that these same cost savings would be achieved in the US. In fact if I had to guess I would say they won't for the simple reason that too many players at the negotiating table have a vested interest in seeing public healthcare in the states become an expensive failure. They want it to fail either for reasons of profit, or ideology and will do what they can to make sure it does, and frankly the Dems don't look like they have the spine to do it right.
To give one example, (since you bring up drug costs) in order to keep big pharma from pouring millions into the fight to oppose healthcare reform, there are rumors that Obama struck a deal with them in which he promised that the public system wouldn't use its buying power to negotiate cheaper drug prices. This would be a huge savings to the system (compare drug prices in Canada if your disagree) but it is off the table.
As for your point that free service just results in people going to the doctor more. In some parts of the US doctors are paid by the number of patients they see in their office. People will call with a question that could easily be answered over the phone, but then the doctor wouldn't get paid, so they make an appointment for the caller to come in person, and what should have cost virtually no money is suddenly quite expensive.
"why should I pay for someone elses healthcare? And who are these people that demand someone else pay for theirs?"
Allan, you don't use insurance? If you pay out of your pocket 100% of all of your expenses then congratulations. If you have insurance, then in fact you are pooling your resources and partially paying for others while they partially pay for yours.
Now let me ask you something: what choice of insurance providers do you have today?
Mike, This plan is not socialist. It is a Public OPTION. An offering to give individuals and small businesses the opportunity to purchase insurance and get the rates that a large group would provide. Rates or groups that are not available to them with the private insurance companies.
The Public Option is only ONE option that citizens will be able to choose from.
There is no way this country would ever become socialist. There are too many of us Liberals that would not let that happen. After all the root word of Liberal means FREEDOM.
This would be an excellent point, if there was anything in healthcare reform that even remotely resembled communism. But there isn't, so it is just another stupid comment. Why not cite the fact that hovercars have failed everywhere they have been tried, it would make as much sense as your previous comment.
"the elephants have never forgotten that communism doesn't work. "
You mean like the Republic of China? Who's funding our debt? The former Soviet Republic seems to be doing fairly well now too.
Come on now.. Soviets failed at communism and have started using free market to succeed, but make have no allusion that they are doing fairly well. Have you been there recently? Talk to the people instead of reading an article written by someone with an agenda.
I wish not to participate in a plan where you steal my money to pay for something I don't want. Don't force me into anything. The Bill of Rights included no language for health care.
The Republicans and the Democrats stink. We need term limits to keep fat cats from greasing the wheels of the long term politician.
My mom brought up our family on welfare for two years. She worked three jobs to get out of it. All the kids went to school and didn't go to jail. How about some self responsibility. If you want healthcare, pay for it yourself, save for treatments, or get a job that offers it. Otherwise, move to a socialist or communist country that provides it.
I love all these stories about the personal responsibility of poor people who struggle hard and play by the rules just so they can get the most grudging healthcare, which they are happy to get.
Well the insurance companies don't play by these same rules. If an insurance company is feeling their profits aren't high enough they just buy a few Senators and Congressmen and get the rules changed so they can kick more sick people off their rolls.
Interesting comment: " If an insurance company is feeling their profits aren't high enough they just buy a few Senators and Congressmen and get the rules changed so they can kick more sick people off their rolls."
And exactly who is that is supposed to be passing this healthcare bill if not Senators and House members (they are ALL Congressmen)? This is the problem with Democrats/liberals - the non-politicians - you just don't realize the interconnectedness of all of this nonsense. The insurance companies wouldn't have the power you say they have w/o the govt giving it to them. The govt (elected officials) wouldn't have the power they have w/o being able to stay in office for their entire lives. It's a self-perpetuating system, something our founders NEVER intended. When lies and deceit abound w/i your ranks, you can NEVER have an honest bill, law, or political statement.
I'm confused by your response. You seem to be saying that this system in which corporations give politicians cash to keep them in office, and politicians write legislation to keep the corporate money flowing into their pockets is bad, and that liberals are unaware that it is happening.
Well, I'm aware it is happening, and I agree with you, its bad.
Maybe you could be so good as to explain what you were trying to say more clearly.
"almoore", I find increasingly vocal comparisons of government-run healthcare to communism worrying and clear evidence to the lack of education and critical thinking of some American people.
How can people of a so-called progressive nation lack such basic education and historical understanding to be able to make such far-reaching associations?
I'm sure your not so distant ancestors did not refer to Eisenhower as Nazi Hitler for creating the Interstate Highway System.
Unfortunately, the relentless brainwashing with ready-digested "current affairs" from your country's media and an extremely narrow-focused education system has led to the creation of dumb absorbers, easily swayed by the puppet-masters of public opinion and perfectly in control.
Greetings from communist Sweden!
And what exactly does Communism have to do with anything involved in this debate? Or is it just part of the obstructionist tactic of deliberately mischaracterizing something you don't agree with to bolster your own position?
Didn't you mean TOO ignorant? That was beautiful, thank you.
I'm not an American and thus can look at things more unbiased than a lot of you. I am extremely amazed how (excuse my bluntness) stupid most of you Americans don't even know your own history - and I mean recent history. The real reason why your economy tanked was not because of the tax cuts (and no I am not a fan of Bush) but because of the failure of many home owners who couldn't afford their mortgage many thanks to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. And do you know who were the one's who kept pushing these organizations to give out loans which people couldn't afford? Liberals Barney Franks and Chris Dodd. They were even warned during the Bush administration that this is chaos waiting to happen. Those two freaked out and said that it's working just fine.
Now you guys are going to the opposite extreme by going into further debt to get out of debt. Are you guys crazy?
I agree you guys need to improve your health insurance situation. But not the way you guys want to do it. Look I belong to a British colony and guess what? Whenever we want some serious health care we go to the US! Not the UK or France.
You have a radical in office. And rather than taking a look at the whole situation sanely and objectively, you guys are going by emotion and party lines! He has avowed communists in office (your "czars" - which Bush had too - and according to your Constituation are ILLEGAL!)
C'mon guys. Go back to your roots! Or fail like the rest of us dopey nations!
And the foreigner shows his/her ignorance. The "czars" you speak of are not actually czars. Nobody in government has the official title of czar. It's a label added by the media.
And the czars were the royal rulers of Russia before the communists overthrew them in a revolution. Therefore, if we did in fact have czars in our government, they wouldn't be communist…
Next!
ok, while not only was your response contrite and transparent, but it failed under it's own (lack of) logic. Just because the communists overthrew a 'Czar' in Russia does not mean that the 'czars' or 'directors' or whatever other label you wish to call them are not similar to the structure of government set up by Communist nations to oversee specific directives and government fields.
You ignored the crux of the original point and simply dismissed it out of hand simply because of you failed to recognize the broader implication. Seems appropriate for someone who would frequent this site.
No, you missed the real point. There are no actual czars in the government. It's not a real title. Nobody holds dictatorial powers.
Are you saying it's communist to have people in government administrating programs and overseeing taxpayer money?
He's saying its communism when they don't have to answer to the people. And call them what you like, Czars or not, they're there, they were NOT vetted through congress, and they only have to answer to one man.
Was it Communism when Bush selected people to head up government departments?
Didn't like Bush's "czars" either. You go under the assumtion that everyone who's conservative or republican think everything Bush did was great. We don't. But this isn't about Bush anymore, it's about whats going on right now.
So you are opposed to presidents choosing who will head up government departments and implement their policies? How can you expect a president to be responsible for what goes on during their watch if they can not make such decisions?
I didn't like any of Bush's policies, but I don't have a problem choosing people to implement them.
Its funny how all these Republicans and Conservatives have emerged since the election to declare how they were opposed to Bush and his policies. I wonder what they were all doing when he was in power.
Hey, Allan. Does the name Carlton Turner ring a bell? It doesn't? He was Reagan's Drug Czar. He was the guy who said that Marijuana leads to homosexuality which in turn leads to AIDS.
It's nice to see you getting recently involved in politics, though.
There is no place in our government for unelected officials who oversee proceedures such as the ones these people have been appointed to oversee.
Ok, so his entire argument is defunct because he was wrong on the "czar" concept?
"Next!"? Why is it always "you" versus "me"? Why is it that we are not all going toward what's best for "us"? I admit my ideas aren't always the best, but I listen for other improved options to learn and grow. If I have something to hide, I push it and deny all denouncers and rush until it's done so no one asks any questions. Why do I get the feeling that is what is happening now?
Yeah his Czar comment was pretty stupid. Every president since Washington has picked people to run government departments. It is not something Obama invented, and the fact that foreigner tries to draw some nefarious connection between the fact that the media has dubbed these department heads "Czars" (a Russian word) and Communism (a former Russian political system) is doubly stupid.
Addressing your other points, there are a lot of people that would say 40 years of debate on this issue is not exactly rushing into anything.
There are definitely valid criticisms to be made of the health care reform proposals, both from the right and left of Obama. Unfortunately this has been utterly overwhelmed by shrieking harpies who have no interest in a reasoned debate. They know that logic and reason would result in a policy being implimented that they oppose on either partisan or ideological grounds. So instead they fill the air with the most ridiculous falsehoods about death panels euthanizing the old and the weak, and how Hitler loved healthcare, and how they want to keep the government out of Medicare.
The loyal opposition has made it clear that their only interest is killing reform outright, because doing so would cripple Obama politically. If you want to blame someone for the fact that critics of reform aren't being taken seriously you might try these clowns in the Republican party.
I believe Foreigner was referring to the confirmed Communists that are working in the administration directly advising the president, i.e., Van Jones.
I know that is the title the media gives! Check the facts first before you accuse someone of idiocy! I didn't say that was the actual title; it is what they are know by in the media and everyday circles. Neither did I say in my blog that the having of Czars makes one a communist. Some of them are not. A few are becuase that is what they themselves said by their beliefs and worldviews. Check your facts and stop jumping off the handle blindly and most of us in the non-American world will respect you more.
You try to make yourselves look so smart but in the end you look like imbeciles. READ THE DOCUMENT FIRST IN IT'S CONTEXT!
Wow, what a way to actually ignore the factual meat of the person's argument (something silly libs are masters at) - the "czars" comment has nothing to do with the crux of the argument:
And the foreigner shows his/her ignorance. The "czars" you speak of are not actually czars. Nobody in government has the official title of czar. It's a label added by the media.
And the czars were the royal rulers of Russia before the communists overthrew them in a revolution. Therefore, if we did in fact have czars in our government, they wouldn't be communist…
Dopey nation you say? What are you a hired Republican hack? You sound like it with your bullshit right wing talking points. Amazing bozo's like you exist, just mindless fools who dont know their ass from 3rd base. We had a couple of dopes that stole whitehouse for 8 years but now we have a guy that actually has a brain in head! And the amazing thing is people like you would rather have a clown like bush instead. And we dont have the best care in the world, we are 37th!!!!! Try France it is #1….yeah that socialist country is #1. Lousy republicans spreading the misinformation campaign as usual. Obama actually governs from the center and you republicans still quibble! I hope he goes after you pricks like FDR did!
Republican hack? OMG you guys really are nuts! You Rebublicans were responsible for an illegal war in Iraq while you Democrats are so illogical and so hateful of your own country. So how does that now make me a Rebulican hack?!? I could care less who is in your party because I am not an American! Plus, regardless who is in power the same crap still goes on because your presidents are nothing but puppets! LOL man how stupid! Take my comment for what it is and seek the truth first. Or maybe you are too afraid to find the truth? So sad!
We did take your comment for what it is. Stupid nonsense and drivel.
Thank you for explaining the facts to these closed minded sheeple.
The "Socialist" programs created to allow everyone the same benefits in society even if they don't work as hard, are the policies that drive the cost of all products and services up in this country.
Any U.S. immigrant can tell you how lazy we the people are and just how easy it is to make something of yourself in this country if you work hard enough.
Every generation of Americans feels more entitled than the last…
Define "fair share". I'm not rich (30k year), I donate 10 percent of my income to charity, and I recieved a $300 tax cut under George Bush. I'm glad you think that if the government takes more of my income that everything will be great again.
None of the proposals under consideration involve raising taxes on anyone making as little as 30k a year. More like $250k. I think you are safe.
"Tax Hikes" are a numbers game. The gov't will tell you they will impose "tax hike" on households that gross over 250k. Most of the ignorant will think "OK that doesnt effect me" When in fact, the current administration is looking at letting the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts expire. What does this mean? Low income individuals will see there taxes increase by 33% (elimination of the 10% tax bracket, reverting to the 15%); Marriage penalty returns; You lose 50% of the tax credits for dependant deductions; Dividend and Capital Gains tax will increase; Federal death tax will come back.
As you can see its not just for people making 250k. Its everyone! EVEN the little guy. Just think, for very individual making 250k a year there are 1000 making less than 60k. The gov't will make ten fold in tax money by quietly raising taxed 2-3% on the middle class than taxing the rich an extra 10% A numbers game. Dont get fooled.
The 2001 and 2003 tax cuts went overwhelmingly to the rich. Average taxcut for millionaires 7.5%, average tax cut for bottom 1/5 of population 0.5%.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1240
On top of which the expiry of those tax cuts is quite independent of healthcare. They intend to let them expire whether or not there is healthcare reform. If you want to know the effect of healthcare reform on tax rates, you have to read what's in the bill, not just make shit up.
I don't want ANYONES taxes to go up. I think everyone pays plenty right now.
Failephants is a derogatory term created by hippies, uneducated people in unions and the inner city, and a small group of elitists who like the idea of centralized power that they will control.
'Socialism is a great system until you run out of other peoples money.' - Margaret Thatcher
Hey Dumbarats, learn math, learn history, and take some responsibility.
Wow that took quite a conspiracy to come up with the term Failephants, I just assumed that the people who made this website came up with it. Thanks for setting me straight. By the way, which cabal came up with Dumbarats, I've never seen that one before.
I got a tax cut under Bush. I am not rich. You guys are just brainwashed left wing idiots. Try thinking for yourselves once in a while.
And your tax cut was financed by increasing the deficit.
Oh my god this is so funny. I could go on for days of how you are wrong. I like how you mention the hanging effigy. You mean like the one that dude made of Sarah Palin. But I bet you guys thought that was ok cause it wasn't YOUR person. And the swastikas. They are not promoting National Socialism, they are saying they don't want it. How hard is that for you brain washed liberals to get? And I love how people on the right are "poisoning the healthcare debate" by speaking their mind. What you really want is the left to get up and just spew their talking points with no one diagreeing. That is the kind of "debate" you retarded liberals want. You are tolerant of all views, as long as the mirror your own. Republicans piss me off as well and there are plenty of things to complain about, but your attitude that the far left dems are always correct shows just how stupid you are. Get it through your head that most people in this country still don't want statism. Come on you "tolerant" liberals, let other people speak their mind.
And by the way I have been to these town hall meetings. You have to shout the speaker down or he will interupt you, cut you off, answer a yes or no question with more talking points, or just keep spewing leftists dogma. So you have to yell otherwise you won't be heard. They don't show that on the news though, they just show the guys who just watched 10 people get shut down and feels the need to yell so he doesn't get the same treatment.
You liberals are retarded. I really hope a violent revolution starts. I wonder which side will win. The anti-gun, pussy-hippy left or the gun toting insane hoosier right. It will be a slaughter and I will enjoy watching you liberals die.
I guess you win the argument with your hopes for the violent slaughter of those you disagree with. Kudos, you are indeed a master of debate.
So commonly liberal - ignore all of the meat of the arguments (the factual data) to go after the emotional cry. Liberals are so easy to predict it's funny:
inus bern says:
I guess you win the argument with your hopes for the violent slaughter of those you disagree with. Kudos, you are indeed a master of debate
I guess I think that when someone talks about wishing for the violent slaughter of their political opponents they lose the right to have the rest of their argument taken seriously. But then, how commonly conservative of you to want to treat violent, rightwing, extremists as simply ordinary americans with a point of view.
"They are rich, selfish and hateful and overwhelming white republicans"
I'm seeing a lot of hypocrisy here. Blindly bashing all conservatives as racist hatemongers, while making racist judgments yourself. Good thing you don't represent all liberals.
There's a lot of knee-jerk apoplexy happening on both sides of the debate, when what's needed is adult conversation on the topic. The fact is, both sides have rational points, and when people start calling names and foaming at the mouth, they do their own side a huge disservice.
Liberals point out that our health care system as it stands makes no sense whatsoever and is doing a poor job of caring for peoples health.
Conservatives point out that a government "solution" is a bad idea, based on existing and historical precedent.
I'm not really seeing either side in Washington work toward a real solution. Patching up a failed system by injecting Government inefficiency will not fix it, and ignoring the problems of the current system won't either.
I encourage everyone to learn the history of how our current health care system got to where it is. You'll find that greed is not the only factor that got us to this point, but that federal government interference has played a large part as well.
This site from what I've seen so far is about perpetuating hate, not resolving it. If you really want to see a solution, take a deep breath and open your mind to what the other side is saying.
"Conservatives point out that a government "solution" is a bad idea, based on existing and historical precedent."
Conservatives just want to pretend that all of the other industrialized countries that have very successful government run healthcare systems simply don't exist.
When people who believe that government is inherently incompetent get to power, they feel a need to prove that government is incompetent. Alot of rightwing commenters claimed that the massive failure around Katrina proved government coundn't do anything right. Really it just proved how incompetent and uncaring Bush/Cheney were.
Your the racist!
Only a "Racist" sees race
You OBAMA-mites are all FRAUDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look, I'm no republican, but I disagree with the health care plan. And none of these things seem to be filled with rage any more than any other rally, with the exception of the gun, which can be traced back to some loon, I'm sure. Democrats are just as closed-minded as Republicans are, and refuse to see the pitfalls of the plan, while Republicans refuse to see the good.
So tell me, where's the Fail Donkey? Because as far as I can remember, Obama's approval rating has dropped to 51% before he's reached 1 year in office. He is certainly no messiah, and certainly not a Democrat to be remembered, other than to learn from past mistakes.
He's at 45%. It's slipping.
Democrats are an epic fail. Look at what they do, they believe in killing innocent babies while they are in the womb, i mean wow how in the world can you call yourself a christian as Obama claims he is and believe in something like that, Then they also believe that gays and lesbians should have rights to get married, how stupid are people these days. OBAMA=OneBigAwfulMistakeAmerica
Piss off. You don't give a rat's arse about innocent babies. You starve them of food and medical care so you can feel morally superior. STFU and let people make their own choices, you intolerant, religious wacko. Guess what? You believe in a fairy tale, and the sooner religion is dumped in the country, the better.
LOL @ Jen
How are babies being starved?
WOW!!! There you go, the real heart of the issue. Mr. or Ms. Limey here wants to "dump" the "fairy tale" of religion. I guess that "British Mad Cow Theory" must be right. I really think all of you Limeys are infected.
Jen, it's too bad your worthless school/communist training center, didn't tell you about the part in history where YOUR people banned together under the protection of God's infinite grace and defeated the godless Nazi bastards (kinda like you… godless, national-socialist Brits). After all, YOUR ancestors were deeply religious and so was YOUR government and (in case you didn't know) their enemy was a group of Pagan morons who made it up as they went along which, incidentally, is exactly what you whacked out Limeys are doing. Look what happened to the Nazis. Do you want to end up like them? Jen, you really need to get your head straight and read history. YOUR ancestors were a thousand times more intelligent, hard working, law abiding and up-standing than you will ever be and they were a MILLION times more prosperous. I know those are really big words for you so let me put it into more simple terms… those Christians (who saved your country so that you could sit there in your lazy little world and complain all day about the horrible religious types) Jen… those people were better than you. And they were predominantly CHRISTIAN! I realize this is news to you but if you shut up and start trying to learn something, then maybe you can become a better and more educated person in the end. But you probably have been infected by the Bovine spongiform encephalopathy so you will have a hard time computing what I'm saying. Hey, maybe you can get one of your Pagan friends to heal you.
And it's funny how someone who obviously must support abortion, would be so bold as to accuse us of wanting to "starve" little babies and refuse them the medical treatment needed to survive. It's similar to Obama's stance, isn't it? It's also a little like the process they (the "secular humanists" OBGYN doctors) use to kill their unwanted babies, for big profit no less.
Wow! What a hypocrite you are…. Jen! However, mindless 'sheeple' like yourself do make a perfect example as to why abortion should be kept legal.
well said.
Oh, you sad little man. I'm a Democrat and I don't believe in killing babies. Put that in your pigeonhole pipe and smoke it.
And I think you got it all wrong. OBAMA = Overturning Bush's Asinine Mistakes Assuredly.
Wow Gaybriel, I guess you've been drinking GALLONS & GALLONS of the punch Barry's been PISSING in. Now did you just make-up that little joke of an acronym or did the commies (you circle-jerk with) inject it into your empty cranium? Let me make up one of my own! Hmmmm, let's see…. OK, I've got one!
O.B.A.M.A. OVERT_BOLSHEVIK_AGAINST_MAINSTREAM_AMERICA
Not bad eh? You really should think twice before you attempt a debate/battle/insult-fest with an old veteran like myself. I'm out of your league Gaybe. Sorry.
Now, you may want to put down the punch and sober up a little, Gaybe. And while you're at it, please tell the world! WHAT DOES OBAMA'S ASS TASTE LIKE? Tell us Gaybe. I'm sure you've been suckin' on it for a while now, so….. you should have a pretty good idea.
Chow!
Let's see….
Shot at Dems supporting 'murder of babies', check.
Comparison to communism, check.
Nice, guys. I have not read the Obama health care plan. Odds are most people on either side of the argument have not. But I would like to point out that the US' current health care system is one of the least effective in the developed world. People pay much, much more and get far, far less. Canadians shell out less money, and spend much less time being told that their plan does not cover having their arm sewn back on.
They spend more time waiting than they should, granted, but it's an example of socialized medicine that has not produced a complete collapse of civilization.
Both communism and capitalism are prone to messy failures. It's kind of inherent in both systems, if someone tries to use them in their purest forms. Hybrid systems are more robust, and far less prone to collapse.
actually, the united states ranks #1 for having the best health care services — we rank #37 according to the w.h.o. because of how and how much we pay for health care, and for our generally unhealthy lifestyles:
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf
so, your "get far, far less" argument is false.
OH MY FARGING GOODNESS!!!!!!!! Is this jerk for real or just some kind of bad dream?
Where did out ancestors go wrong? What made them think they could mate with donkeys and not have a race of Jack-Asses thirty years later?
But hey, I think we may have found the "missing link". It's very possible that Dav-Larr may be the decedent of an APE-LIKE creature.
This website equals as much of a fail as those "angry Republicans" you deride. As much as they might blindly bitch and moan about liberal initiatives, you just as often blindly support any such initiatives and throw anger back the other way. Thanks for doing your part to divide this country.
The problems lie on both ends of the spectrum. Take a clue from the great Michael Jackson: "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and then make a change."
I support this website. I see a lot of republican's ragequitting because they absolute thought of helping someone else is horrible. And to the person who was whining about supporting gay marriage. You talk about killing babies as if you care about humans, but you seem to be a homophobic nut.
Woop woop! I don't agree with someone's opinion on gay marriage, that makes them a homophobe! Typical political FAIL, undermine someone's opinion by name calling (aka I don't care what Timmy says, he's a doody head!)
I don't regret helping someone else. I help others all the time. I regret being forced to do it. I regret that my government is doing it without consideration for what it will cost this country (And that has nothing to do with money).
I have the right to decide that I don't want health care coverage. If the current proposal for reform goes through, I won't. I have the right to decide, not the government. I have the right to decide what level of coverage I receive. (If I choose the "free" plan, I won't. And even if I don't choose the government plan, under the proposed reform, I won't)
Will there be "death panels"? (I'm trying hard to silence my laugh)No (duh!) but there will be panels that decide what is covered and what isn't (In the free government plan). (Shouldn't I be doing that when I purchase coverage through an authorized insurance agent?) (I do have a copy of the HB, if anyone wants it)
So basically, you're now outraged about the Republican Party now doing what the Democratic Party has been doing since 1968. Well done… remember this for the future.
Amen!
I can't wait until my doctor's office is just like the Veteran's Administration.
I can't wait until the chunk of taxes that comes out of my paycheck is even bigger.
It'll be awesome.
I am a conservative. I'm opposed to health care reform. I'm angry, but not for the reasons you'd think. I believe that most of my fellow conservatives are frustrated and believe that the GOP has left them, and the Dems obviously aren't listening to them, either. I understand their frustration. I don't agree with it, though. Your elected officials are there because you put them there.
I oppose President Obama's health care reform, because I don't believe that I should be required to pay for any one elses healthcare. I've read speeches from politicians that indicate that the current version of the government healthcare 'option' would pay for itself. I've also been told that the government plan would be free. Obviously, both cannot be true.
Incidently, I work for a living. I have a family to support. I'm not rich. I am, however, white. From some of the opinions I've read here, that makes me one of the "rich, selfish and hateful and overwhelming white republicans who voted for George Bush twice as he continually gave them tax cuts that almost destroyed the USA financially and otherwise." Obviously I'm a,"failure, but to ignorant to understand." I just don't believe that the US was off track as far as health insurance goes.
You are already paying for others health care! Every time someone that currently does not have health insurance shows up to be treated at an ER…we pay with higher health insurance premiums.
What if those people could actually AFFORD health insurance because the government provides a plan be it an "exchange" or Co-op that gets them in to a large risk pool that lowers the premiums? That way there will be more people seeking care at a doctor's office instead of going to the ER which costs everyone much more.
And I quote "It's no use debating with Republicans and their extreme followers - they're not interested." Wow, sweeping generalization.
And a picture of a gun, seriously? Looks more like a red herring to me.
Fallacious arguments don't preclude the possibility of a true proposition, but they obviously don't support the truth, either. In fact, this "blog" is a waste of time–in my opinion–because it doesn't really present the issue without trying to first bias your opinion.
So, if I'm a Republican you're not supposed to talk about the issues with me because you looked at some pictures online or watched some protesters on T.V.? Really?
I admit that I exaggerate, but c'mon, this is nothing more than poorly constructed (read: logically fallacious) propaganda.
I encourage everyone to talk about the issues, but don't get your information from sites that post drivel like this. Develop your own intelligent views on the issues and don't be a lemming.
VERY well said.
wow. really wow. This is the REAL failBlog right here. Not funny and not appropriate advertisement at all.
ACORN, AFL-CIO, AFSCME, AFT, Americans United for Change, Campaign for America’s Future, Center for American Progress Action Fund, Campaign for Community Change, Children’s Defense Fund Action Council, Communications Workers of America, International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace & Agricultural Implement Workers of America (UAW), MoveOn.org, NAACP, National Council of La Raza, National Education Association, National Women’s Law Center, SEIU, UFCW, USAction, Women's Voices, Women's Vote and Working America.
That list says all I need to know about your org. Explain to me how everyone can have health care on demand with low co-pays and premiums if somone else isn't footing the bill? Your objectives clerly are unrealistic. The expansion of government into healthcare will ruin both our economy and our healthcare system. What skin do the unions have in this game?
they just want more government workers in public-sector unions to pay more union dues that can be used for "issue-advocacy" campaigns to elect more democrats, that will hire more government workers in public-sector unions…
it's they same reason they want card check — more money for labor bosses.
Tea-Bag this baby…OWN our history of fighting off the British Monarchy in order to make the greatest Nation EVER…if you read at all, you know that our original victory was tenuous at best on several occasions and came at the expense of heroic people that never got to see the fruits of their patriotism (yet we do). Within our Greatest Nation, many patriots have willingly been sent to the slaughter to protect/defend weaker, less democratic nations (by Democrat and Republican Presidents). That in mind, we shouldn't lay down on our collective back and show our belly to other national systems (including "influence" from the United Nations). The artist would have been more accurate had the elephant been hanging on to the tea-bags. It seems to me that Tea-Baggers aren't interested in carrying a party as much as reminding it where to go.
Foreigner — Love your trope (oft-repeated by the hypocro-publicans)that little ol' Barney Frank brought down the world's economy. I'm sure he'd be surprised to know he has such power!
Actually it was the securitization phenomenon, practiced by Wall Street, grown in a Republican (and to a lesser-extent) Demoncrat-endorsed environment of deregulation, and heartily promoted by such Republican luminaries as Phil Graham. A bit of blame to the left, certainly, but the lions' share of blame (like most of the disasters that brought us to the brink during the Bush years) goes to the Republicans, now dominated by fringe demagogues and angry, ignorant religionists. Study the subject a little more and you'll see the truth. Might not be what you and the present cohort of conservative ignoramuses are peddling, but truth nonetheless.
Hello, I am a populist/progressive and I want everyone to know that some of the arguments that the right wingers are screaming, although hysterical sounding, actually make a little sense to me!
First of all, this Health Care Reform bill is scaring the bejesus out of me! I am a Family Physician and 100% concerned for patients and their families! I have no investments in any health care related industries, at all, nor ever did! Here is my #1 concern, THE INDIVIDUAL MANDATES! Forcing people to buy Health Insurance is not going to drive down prices! It has failed miserably in Mass. causing premiums to rise 25% in the first 2 years after enactment of their mandated insurance program and driving the state to the brink of economic ruin. Now the Safety Net Hospitals in Mass. have been drained from their funding, that was actually providing real Health Care to the lower income citizens and the poor are left with their insurance policies and much less actual health care!!!
Health Insurance does not equal Health Care!!!!!!!!!!
Go to http://www.pnhp.org and see for yourself if you do not believe me!
The right wingers are complaining of having the IRS in their faces demanding proof of their insurance policies in the future and the huge Fed. bureacracy that will be created around forcing this mandate–I AGREE WITH THEM!!!!
Please everyone start talking to each other. They have their good points and they should be listened to seriously, it would be a much better bill if we were actually listening to each other! Not every complaint of theirs is worthy of inclusion, like their insistance about not paying any money for health care for Illegals. This is so blatantly immoral that we, the Doctors will not tolerate it if at least Emergency Care is not provided for these people. We will refuse to allow America to turn us into monsters! Period End of Story!
But if we just drop the individual mandates from this bill and allow this program to stand on it's own, (if it is going to be affordable then let it be really affordable), then we could see real competition back into the Insurance market! And we won't run the risk of a Mega-Federal Big Brother enforcement bureaucracy, which NEVER ends up good for the people of this country and the right wingers can keep the expansion of the IRS out of their life! Lord knows I hate the IRS and it's despotic control too!
Start talking to each other and end this partisan BS! It always enriches the wealthy and it never works out well for the people when we become so polarized!
Sincerely, Dr. Lora Chamberlain, Chicago
I agree 10000000000%. Those of us on the right should be willing to leave our stock piles of guns, ammo, and bibles and actually have discussions with those with whom we disagree. And by discussions, I mean really listening, not just the standard "analyzing to find a weakness" type of listening.
After all, it's when you look at an enemy, and see a friend who has a valid point (or point of view) that you really start to find solutions to problems.
On one point…there is a difference between emergency health care to save a life and regular health care for regular doctor visits, medications, et cetera. I don't think anyone begrudges illegals emergency medicine, just no continuous daily care…they need to go home and have their government pay for that.
I'm pretty sure there are people who begrudge illegals emergency care, as for the rest of it, none of the proposals extend care to illegal aliens.
I think all of you need to go and study American History,and Political Science. Communism,Socialism,Democracy,Republicanism,
Liberalism, are all political philoshphies, none of which in themselves are wholly good or totally evil. Our country is a Democratic Republic, which has been based on Capitalism, yet another philosophy. The biggest problem I see is that no one wants to work and pay for the things they get, they want the government to give it to them. Well guess what everything that the government gives is paid for by those that work, not those that don't work, since "We the people" are the government.
The only problem with giving away everything is that sooner or later those that work lose incentive to work because those that don't work get the same as those that do…..so why work??? Now who is left to pay?????
Republicans always want everything for free.
Republicans only want to keep what they earn & are tired of giving their profets to Lib Democrats like yourself.
Hi, I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm one of the people paying for your grandparent's Medicare.
I hope they're doing well. Tell them I said "hello."
This site has such obviously skewed propaganda, it is laughable. Its another perfect cog in the Obama propaganda machine, that only those gullible enough to have voted for him will appreciate.
A government option means taking tax dollars for funding. Taxes are FORCED on citizens. Their right to property has be taken away by an immoral government. It's bad enough that we have lost a fundamental freedom, to add this burden to our backs is just more evil from a corrupt government. One other detail, WE CAN'T AFFORD IT! Have you tards seen the national debt?
Stop seeing a polarized view of the world with either republican or democrat, THEY ARE BOTH WRONG. This is about right and wrong.
There are three human rights, life, liberty, property. A right that takes any of these away from another human by force is NOT A RIGHT. You are responsible for taking care of you. That is your stewardship. I wasn't born a slave to work for you and support your whims. I wasn't born to be a sacrificial animal and live only for the good of other. RIGHTS ARE INDIVIDUAL. If you want something, you earn it yourself. Get the government out of private industry and soon we'll have affordable health care.
OK, first, let's read the bill.
Simple enough. Go to http://www.opencongress.org/ and search for the bill.
I only managed to wade through a tenth of it in about six hours. This thing's enormous.
That's one count against it. YOU are expected to know and follow this once it gets signed into law. All 3,000 pages of it.
In the small portion of the bill that I managed to read, there were three things that, by themselves, would kill the bill for me.
First of all: All private insurance companies are to operate at a specified loss. If they fail to meet that loss, they have to reimburse their client's bills. But, y'know, that doesn't destroy them - 80% of their expenses are, under the bill, to be paid with tax money. That is, YOUR money. Whether YOU got sick or not. This leaves you no chouice but to pay for someone else's healthcare, and no choice but to use a government-funded healthcare system, even though on the surface they're private.
Second: A fine if you don't have health insurance. I don't know the accuracy of the radio hosts' and columnists' claims that it's a $1,000 fine, it only says that you get fined. I'm not sure of how silence on the amount of a fine works in the legal system - it may render it the discretion of the judge, which would be even scarier.
Third: It leaves the removal of a person from not just the "public option", but ALL healthcare policies, at the discretion of an elected official, named "Commissioner" in the bill. Sure, it doesn't CALL it a "death panel". Besides, it's not a panel, it's one person. But it gives him the option to pull the plug on anyone (and in the process net them a fine, see second point above).
I didn't provide precise references to these, for two reasons. First, I was dumb and forgot to write them down. Second, YOU need to read the bill.
Now let's address the problem.
Insurance fatcats denying expensive claims to people who need them: That's fraud, simple as that. Existing laws already cover that. If the guy with the 17-year-old daughter who died because her insurance wouldn't pay for a new liver had taken the case to court, no judge would have ruled anything BUT to provide the services paid for or refund all payment (either option would have covered the girl's liver and saved her life), especially given corporations typically ignore lawsuits and fail to appear in court. But, her father let her die, because he doesn't even understand the laws his country runs on (see my gripe about the 3,000 page bill).
Insurance being necessary at all: That's a result of the high cost of healthcare.
The high cost of healthcare: If a doctor makes a mistake, as humans are prone to do, he's liable for millions. MILLIONS. Malpractice insurance, as a result, costs a shitload. Thus the good doctor has to charge a shitload more to feed his children.
Poorly written malpractice law: HERE is the REAL problem. Fix this, the doctors don't need malpractice insurance, and it's understood that humans make mistakes. Healthcare prices plummet. Insurance companies are no longer needed. Insurance companies no longer pull blatant fraud in which the victim is too ignorant to bring charges. The "public option" becomes unnecessary. No angry people with guns (oh yeah, that photo wasn't even taken at a town hall meeting. Do your research people, the media's trying to panic you. Fear sells well).
Finally, do more research on existing laws. Any and all state-run hospitals MUST provide medical care no matter the patient's ability to pay. That's a federal law. The bum on the street with cancer in his leg? He doesn't need insurance. He doesn't even need a penny. The worst he'll face is, he might have to leave his beer at the door.
This healthcare bill addresses the symptom, not the problem, and it's a symptom that's already GOT a patch over it.
tl;dr Angry "FAILephant" rambling uncomfortable truths
WELL SAID!!!
Look at this propaganda! Can you believe this is OUR government trying to coerce us into their fascist plan. These fools want to fix it until it's broken and by broken I mean F.U.B.A.R.! At least the current system is fixable under free market solutions. If "El estado del Fascismo" takes over, you can forget about quality health care!
Aren't we supposed to be different from the rest of the world? Aren't we supposed to be free to succeed or fail under our own recognizance? What happened to "give me freedom or give me DEATH?" And if socialized health care is so great, then why don't all the 'Obammunists' just move to Cuba? They would fit right in and really like it there. They already have the system in place over in Cuba and the other 'Soviet Lite' European countries. Why don't they just immigrate there and leave us alone?
Now it takes the most "technologically advanced" state in the world, almost 10 years to build a "pre-fabricated" bridge (the east span of the Bay Bridge) while other private contractors can do twice the work in 6 months. Imagine what will happen when the same 'experts in buffoonery' take over our health care system. It's going to take you months just to fill out the paper work and years to actually get a doctor and that's if everything works perfectly. If things go like they always do (with these corrupt politicians) then we are in some real trouble now.
Forget the morons in D.C. because they work for themselves and Wall Street and they couldn't care less if you lived or died… just as long as you give them your vote before you go…. and after you go if your a Democrat.
It's all so simple. We are being 'governed' by a blithering band of thieving idiots! Stand up people! Exercise your patriotic duties and vote these Romanesque usurpers out!!!
PS- Nancy "The Wicked Witch of the West" Pelosi is the most horrible thing to ever hold office and she will be exposed in the chronicles of political history as one of the most infamous creatures known to mankind. It's time to put her out to pasture for she has grown long in the tooth and has taken great pleasure in defecating on the American dream.
BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAA and once again well said.
OK Joe American, I am not sure you fully understand what fascism is, or even what (in the purest sense) capitalism is.
First off, do not use fascism and communism interchangably. It shows a lack of understanding of what they are, except as 'bad things'. It's just name calling, and more importantly it shows you don't even know how to insult your political opposite correctly.
Fascism is, in simplest terms, a dictatorship. Smallest government possible. They were generally very profitable and strong due to capitalist policies, strong military focus, and pretty much not caring about citizens' rights. If you want to slander someone of conservative bent, go for fascism. The Axis Powers in WW2 were fascists.
Communism… well, it's where everything you own really belongs to the government and in theory they're supposed to do a lot of stuff for you in exchange. In practice, most communist states are also dictatorships. If you want to slander someone of liberal bent, go for communism. The USSR was communist.
Both of these types of government had their secret police, the gestapo and the KGB. Which of them you'd love to see drag away your opponent and never see them again is pretty much dependent on what "side" you're on and if you're irrationally pissed off enough.
Alright? You can continue making cute nicknames to make fun of each other with now, as long as you know the right ones.
AND NOW YOU KNOW.
Yes this is true, but you are splitting hairs now. First of all, Hitler was a fascist and a socialist at the same time and there is very little difference between that and communism. Commies take their power through fascistic means and this is how it's always been so don't blame me for mixing up definitions. They were the ones who refused to stick with the political philosophies they represented. And in reality, none of these fools practiced what they preached
Now if you want to be technically correct concerning political nomenclature then none of these titles are accurate using those parameters, but the point is still made quite clearly. These people (in actuality) are "Progressive Statists" who put the needs and desires of the government above the needs and desires of the citizens and both fascists and communists and socialists follow that simple principle. Thank you very much for the political terminology lesson but I think I've got it. Here is a link which will help make my point….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism
Either way, we don't want the state to be so controlling, be it commie or Nazi and if you follow the path taken by the Nazis (who WERE socialist which, is just the little sister of the ugly and fat communist), you should be able to find some frightening similarities with the "Enviro-fascists", the "Progressive/(regressive) Statists" and the Secular Humanists"… all of which have a little too much in common with Stalin, Trotsky, Castro and Chavez. They all seem to fall under the "liberal" label and yet they couldn't be farther from the true liberalistic philosophy. Liberals believe in individual rights, free speech and small governments. The "Statist" morons who are causing so much trouble around the world, are opposed to all of these liberal ethics. One more reason why I believe 'Hippie' is short for HYPOCRITE.
One more thing… "it's funny how liberals are liberal about everything but liberty." I can't remember who said that but he couldn't have been more correct.
So there was nothing the least bit authoritarian about invading a foreign country over lies in order to control their resources, or illegally spying on citizens, or politicizing the justice department to prosecute political opponents, or introducing torture, eliminating habeus corpus, setting up secret prisons, disappearing people, etc. etc., but try and make sure that every citizen has health care and you are a commie/socialist/nazi/fascist?
And conservatives get pissed off when people won't take their arguments in good faith.
So why is it when liberals protest things you consider it your government given right but when conservatives do it it's harrassment? Typical left-wing double-standard. I'm a Republican and a Failblog fan. It might be hard for failbloggers to understand that not all of their fans are left-wing. Last month I had to go to Canada to assist my grandfather's brother and bring him to the US for medical care since Canada's socialized medical system wouldn't assist him. That's a reality that most 20-somethings know nothing about and don't care to know. They just want to regurgitate the diatribe of "get the Republicans" because it's so quick, easy and convenient. Socialized medicine isn't the cure and as a conservative, I'll probably be the one picking up the tab for those of you who spend all day on the internet instead of going to work. Great. …just great.
Us British folks LOVE our NHS (National Health Service). It is an institution we fought hard for, and would not change. It is also the biggest employer of skilled workers in the UK (Unlike the USA where I believe the biggest industries are drugs, porn and firearms). It annoys us when people who don't understand our system, or indeed basic english language (moose bothering nazi retard Sarah Palin, I'm looking at you) label it 'evil'. Is it really so diabolical to care for the disadvantaged in society AS WELL as everybody else?.
ANYONE who has had an accident or becomes ill in this country, will receive the same, very high, level of treatment - free at the point of service. This is not a socialist principal, it's basic humanity, something you sabre-rattling Republican dorks seem to know nothing about. You all claim to love Jesus so much, on your evangelical talk shows, which are fast becoming the laughing stock of the WHOLE world - what would HE do when faced with a sick man? - Treat, or demand payment?
Don't you just love it when Europeans make political statements about another persons country? And why wouldn't Bob love his little government plan? After all, he is from the same country where Christians are oppressed and Muslims are protected. Where freedom of speech is limited to those who seek to destroy the country and revoked from those who seek to protect it. The same country where you can't comment on the foul nature of some ethnic food without the risk of jail time. The same country that brought us (soon to be ousted) Gordon Brown-nose, a communist double agent of the highest order.
Also, what would those British types know about quality? Don't they make the Jaguar (crap) the Land Rover (junk) and don't they drink their beer warm (UGGH)? Looks to me like they are about the last people to understand a solitary thing about freedom, quality, The American Way or beer for that matter. Bob, why don't you keep your NHS and your BBC and your lousy food to boot! We don't need to adopt your backward ways. You see, we are different over he Bob. We don't want to be like you because, we are AMERICANS!
Next thing you know, some Brit is going to start talking about how wonderful NHS dental care plans are… yeah, like we're going to believe that.
You're not going to start defending that watery piss Americans call beer now, are you?
OK, you've got a point, American beer is lame but at least it's cold! Actually, Mexican beer is superior to all other beers… or that's my opinion anyway. I say… we should elect "The Most Interesting Man in The World" for president. Too bad he doesn't drink Corona! Heee heee.
Awww…bless. Joe America, you're an idiot.
Thank you Bob.
Now to anyone paying attention, did you notice how our little Euro friend here refused to actually engage in the debate, even if the forum was littered with sarcastic insults and gross generalizations. I mean, this guy would rather insult me than argue the point. Just like most (if not all) of the other "Global Statists" and "Secular Humanists" types out there in England. Sometime I can't believer that I'm related to them. And it's funny how this 'so called' expert of the English language can't even put together a reasonable retort without calling me an idiot. Nice going Bob. Show us your true colors. Let's not forget the fact that these kinds of people refuse to let the facts get in the way of their mindless agenda. Oh yeah, like the fact that most of the (upwardly mobile) people in the world who become really sick and can't get the right kind of treatment in their own country, those people jump on a plane fly to England… right? Oh wait, that's right, they DON'T go to England. They come here… to the United States of America! I guess Bob didn't get that memo.
But he does seem to have a pretty major hard-on for Sarah Palin. It's because she's hot, isn't it Bob? I guess all of that government provided Viagra must be kicking in. He also seems to hate guns. Wasn't Freud the one who said, "a fear of guns is a sign of sexual immaturity"? One more reason why he must love/hate such a powerful and intelligent woman like Sarah. How much do you want to wager that in Bob's little mind, every time he hears the word SARAH, he gets a mental image of the former Alaskan Governor standing over him with a 12 gauge to his face while she steps on his little "you-know-what"…. which makes him squeal like a girl, I'm sure. No wonder a guy like Bob is so attracted to her. Hey Bob, here's another memo that you didn't get… SHE'S NOT THE PRESIDENT! Well, not yet anyway. =)
Last week, an amazing point was made on Michael Savage's Radio show. Yes Bob, the same Michael Savage who was banned from your lousy little island for not thinking correctly according to your backwards government. After reading Bob's little soliloquy about Sarah, I really think the caller hit the nail right on the head and someone should really look into this. The caller stated that he believes the English public have been eating too much of their own beef and perhaps there's a new and unrecognized form of MAD COW DISEASE infecting almost every one in Britain. It does make perfect sense. Every bit of political news coming from England nowadays makes me think they have all gone mad. For the sake of conversation, let's see where Gordon Brown ends up in two years. Five quid says he'll be humping 'Bangers and Mash' out of an aluminum cart to the peasants in some obscure park on the east end of Nottingham. TOO WROIGHT LAD! Cheerio!
Please Bob, don't worry. If this new disease is real then you can be sure the medical scientists here in the United States will have a solution in no time. Let's just hope you've got enough brains left to take the vaccine. Try to be patient Bob.
PS- Hey Bob, don't you mean "God Blesssssss?" (I'm trying to simulate the big, whistling gap in your teeth)
ONE MORE THING! I don't think Bob is from England. There's something fishy about the way her writes and I'd bet dollars to donuts that Bob's comments and a number of the other pro-commie comments are being made by the crybaby Obammunists who run this site. And you can bet they are sending our IP addresses to the Gestapo that B. Hussein Obammer is building. Don't be surprised if those of us who are opposed to his devious plan and were dumb enough to leave our comments, will be audited with in the next 6 months. Hopefully that's all they plan to do but there are those strange incinerators all over the place, you know? The ones that the conspiracy weirdos have been talking about all these years… with the train tracks and the turn-stiles. Maybe their not so weird after all…..
(gulp) OOPS!!! Dammit! I knew I shouldn't have said anything!
You are quite right Joe.I am not from England.
The UK is made up of four separate countries.
England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. You profess not to be an idiot, so I'll just assume you weren't paying attention in that particular first grade geography class.
Let's see, what else? Do I think Sarah Palin is hot? …duh…Does this even warrant an answer? Not really, but here goes. Yes, she is quite pretty. She could (and should) make a fair living as a model, maybe advertising beer or tampons, but a politician? You need intellegence for that particular job, Joe. You need diplomacy (look it up in a dictionary) and you need tact. But then idiots like you voted in Bush. Twice. So I guess you didn't even learn from your first mistake, and its only thanks to the more intellectually aware people in your country, Obama was elected.
Oh, and one last thing, the word 'bless' is used over here as an endearing little term when babies and small children have a tantrum and throw their toys out of their buggies. Quite apt on this occasion.
OK, OK! That's fine, you think I'm an American IDIOT, I think you're a spineless Limey ne'er do well. I'm glad that's settled. But your comments about Mrs. Palin tell me you don't know anything about her record as governor nor do you know how much people like her over here in the states. You better get ready because she will most likely be our next president. And yes, I did vote for Bush, five times in fact and though he did let me down more than any other president in history, at least he acted like he was pro-American (even though, in the end he turned out to be pro-Goldman-Sachs). I'm not going to argue his merits because he's not the Pres. anymore so it's time to move on. As for the current Pres. well, if you think he is pro-American, then I'd hate to see what you consider anti-American.
Now I'm sorry for getting so personal and I really don't have much against people from the UK. In fact I am half British and I have 2 really good friends living there right now and I speak to them on a regular basis. One is into politics and he tells me what's going on over there. The other has no interest in politics and I can't get her to tell me anything so there is no way for me to cross reference the two opinions. However, I've heard enough to know that I don't want my country going after some UK style health care plan and I'm not alone. You see, it's not just me stopping this thing from gliding through undetected. It's me and about one hundred MILLION of my country men and women. That's the reality of the situation and you'd be a fool to not see it. And tell me if you can… what the hell is wrong with that? Tell me Bob! What is wrong with America NOT being like Eurpoe? Where is it written that we all have to be the same? What happened to "every human being is special and every human being is free to make their own decisions." I guess all that must go out the window and we're supposed to get in line and take what they give us? SCREW THAT BRO!!! WE Americans have a rebellious streak running through us and it 5 miles deep. We don't take it! We give it back and that must really burn people who just want us to shut up and sign up. NO WAY! Not me and not my fellow patriots.
We feel that America has never been made great by copying other people's junk. We have our own brand of junk and we are cool with that. America became the greatest, richest, most powerful AND the MOST CHARITABLE nation in this worlds history. You can't deny that. Although there have been some pretty unrighteous tragedies in our past, still we have liberated more, healed more, enriched more and educated more people than any other country or nation or society ever has. And we did it by being different and by being CHRISTIAN!!! (Sorry Jen but it's an historical fact)
This is the concept off 'American Exceptionalism' and it's not going away any time soon. We refuse to join up with the world community. Why would you want this New World Order to commence after all that has happened in history? This health care mumbo-jumbo is just one more link in the chain. Have you not read George Orwell or Ray Bradbury? Why do you want this Global Community to manifest it's ugly head in YOUR neighborhood? You can't tell me there isn't a link between the new world order and this expansion of government control over Americans and there doctors. They've got control of our schools, our banks, our houses, our cars, our business, our radio, our TV and our news papers. And now they want our doctors. I realize that the tide of global uniformity under one political banner is almost too much to hold back but you can bet that WE are not going out without a BIG FARGING BANG!!! I hope you understand.
I'd like to continue with this silly little argument but you can't change my mind and I can't change your mind and though I really do enjoy smacking all these cross-eyed goons who support this crap, I really do have better thing to do with my life. You see, I employ three people with my small company and it's hard enough to keep things running smooth. I don't need big brother breathing down my neck any more than he already does. And his breath smells like stale cigarettes. Do you understand?
Wow Joe, take a chill pill, will you?
Bob was merely offering an important viewpoint which Americans can certainly use a bit more of these days. Call off the attack dogs and get back to the point here.
I used to be a right-wing, bush-voting, Limbaugh-quoter who loved his view on America, much like you.
But then I moved out of the states in lived among the world a bit, and saw how things are from different culture's perspectives.
Bob's country may be just as flawed politically as many others, but I'd rather use the free-to-all healthcare they enjoy there than the shitty drug-pusher-run healthcare in the USA that is immensely over-inflated pricewise.
Charles Gibson said a week or two ago that 70% of what we pay for in the US is Paperwork, not medicine. - Think about that for a minute. It's extremely expensive, by everyone's standards. Very few other countries, if any at all, have to put up with that kind of inefficient sh*t!
No health care system in the world's history has needed a good auditing like this one does right now. So as long as we're going to overhaul it, I for one would much rather see it modeled closer to England's health care, which is truly awesome once you learn about it.
'Tis better to err on the side of kindness to those in need than on the side of your personal greed.
Yeah yeah yeah, and I suppose the money will just fall from the sky like fairy dust while rainbows shine in a sunset dream with champagne rivers and gum-drop trees.
Oh wait, they're going to raise taxes on everyone in order to pay for it… like they do in England. Are you aware of how much they pay in taxes over there? And do you realize how complicated this proposed system is becoming? What on earth makes you think the group of thieves in D.C. are going to make it better? Where does this faith you have in our government come from? Do you believe in Jesus? Show me an example of how our government has made anything better with respect to social hand-out programs. We have the same percentage of impoverished people now as we did when those well fare programs started. Only now those poor little people are carrying cell-phone, smoking cigs, drinking beer, eating out, watching cable, using the Internet, eating too much food and getting fat, smoking pot and using who knows what else. But I suppose all those things are ALSO human rights and they shouldn't be asked to cut their expenses on things they don't really need now should they?
And what about all the people (like me) who don't use insurance. If I had paid for insurance over the last 15 years, I'd be about 40,000 dollars poorer than I already am. Do you want to know how much money I have spent on stitches, broken bones, illness and dental work? about 2500 dollars. Sure, it would be nice to have not worried about it for all those years but I think I'll keep the $37,500, thank you. I should have the right to choose freedom over security. Are you trying to remove that right from me? You are if you support this current proposal.
What percentage of that 70% (cost due to paperwork) is caused by government regulations due to unbelievable expenses from a lack of tort reform? As it sits, the industry is one of the biggest circle-jerk sessions ever recorded. The drug companies, insurance companies, hospitals, lawyers and politicians are all getting filthy rich based on our ignorance and inability to do anything about it. But we're starting to wake up and things will be changing soon. Now, to think OUR government can make those changes better than the free market, that is pretty insane. The government needs to step back and reset the court with new players and new rules. It only needs to be regulatory in it's nature and it needs to be very passive at that. They simply can not control that big of a program and if you think there is waste now, just imagine what it will be if this crap goes through…. and I don't think it will.
Once again, if the British system is so great, I'm pretty sure you know by now what I think you should do about it. Very simple.
That is quite an amusing comeback considering your first response to Bob was to basically insult all things British from food to beer to cars to dentistry. But anyway its good to know that now we are moving onto arguments of substance rather than just hurling insults.
Sarcasim - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
Sarcasm is a form of humor that uses sharp, cutting remarks or language intended to mock, wound, or subject to contempt or ridicule.[1] It is first recorded in English in The Shepheardes Calender in 1579:
Tom piper) An Ironical [Sarcasmus], spoken in derision of these rude wits, which make more account of a rhyming Rimbaud, then of skill grounded upon learning and judgment.
—Edmund Spenser[1]
It comes from the ancient Greek σαρκάζω (sarkazo) meaning 'to tear flesh' but the ancient Greek word for the rhetorical concept of taunting was instead χλευασμός (chleyasmόs). Sarcasm appears several times in the Old Testament, for example:
Lo, you see the man is mad; why then have you brought him to me? Do I lack madmen, that you have brought this fellow to play the madman in my presence?
—Achish, king of Gath, I Sam 21:10-15[2]
Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way such as saying "don't work too hard" to a lazy worker. The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive but understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's intentions. This sophisticated understanding is lacking in people with brain damage, dementia and autism,[3] and this perception has been located by MRI in the right parahippocampal gyrus.[4][5]
Sarcasm mark
In certain Ethiopic languages, sarcasm is indicated with a sarcasm mark, a character that looks like a backwards question mark at the end of a sentence, similar to Alcanter de Brahm's proposed irony mark (؟). Subtitles, such as in Teletext, sometimes use an exclamation mark in brackets to mark sarcasm: (!).
It is common in online conversation to use a pseudo-HTML element: Yeah, that's really going to work.[6]. This is often abbreviated by omitting the leading tag and eliding the close to "/sarc".
A "rolling eyes" emoticon is often used as well, particularly in instant messaging.
Karl Marx uses the exclamation mark in brackets repeatedly throughout Das Kapital Volume 1. For example, in one instance, to ridicule Colonel Torrens: 'The problem is in no way simplified if extraneous matters are smuggled in, as with Colonel Torrens: "effectual demand consists in the power and inclination [!], on the part of the consumers, to give for commodities, either by immediate or circuitous barter…"'.[7]
Temherte Slaq, is the name for a mark used in the Ethiopic language to indicate an unreal phrase, and is used to express sarcasm. [8]
During the summer of 2009, a group of pain physicians decided to have online text represented by the first standard color of sarcasm, Dark Orchid. The color is a common color selection in online forums.[9]
Older Jaguars are sweet and they were only as reliable as the engine you put in them because they were designed to take almost any motor you want. As for the new Jags, well they're just fancy Fords and I'm not into that.
Land Rovers have the distinct label as being one of (if not THE) most reliable vehicles in the world and if you have an old one, you can get parts for that straight 6 engine almost any place you are brave enough to venture.
As for British "beers"….
-brown ale
-porter
-pale ale
….. (please excuse me, I dry-heaving)
This is very convenient for those who hate Mexican style beers and I'm sure you will not hesitate to use this against me but I'd sooner carbonate and consume my own urine than drink that British syrup they call "BEER". But at least I'd put it in the fridge.
=)
I can't imagine what prompted you to copy and paste a wickipedia entry on sarcasm here. You'll be happy to know that it does make you seem very erudite tho.
One thing that I can say about Republicans is that though they are currently the party of "No", they really have their talking points in line and though they are organized in spreading a lot vitriol and lies, they are nonetheless organized around a message. The Dems have a lot of holes in their explanations, the conservatives are filling them in with hyperboles and non-truths, and at least right now and it's destroying the opportunity for a good debate on the real issues. So we can't really fault the Republicans for finding holes in our arguments; in fact we should have predicted this and had a more cogent explanation of what a public option and health care reform is. Hindsight is 20/20 and I hope we can do this now.
I think it's important to have a cheap public option for those who are uninsured so that taxpayers don't end up having to bite the bill later when these people have to go to the ER a a result of lack of preventive care.
On a personal note, I'm currently a grad student so I have insurance but my gf just graduated and is looking currently looking for a job all while hoping she doesn't get sick. It's pretty scary to know she doesn't have a place to go any more if she gets sick…
Therefore, I'm hoping that the Dems' cajones finally drop and we are able to push a public option plan through.
Sorry about my comment earlier about republicans, they are right. and i was just looking for a handout
Way to go, I see you have invoked the famous "Cuba Clause."
Health care reform ≠ Socialism ≠ Communism
I hope that helps.
Hmm… Illinois Congress hasn't completed a full budget cut in two years in a row without passing some packaged bill that also raises government pay, first. If this happens in one state, it must be going on else where too… and this is all you have to argue about?
Democrats just want a free handout at the cost of our children and their children. have you ba$tards ever heard of generational theft? probably not…
Wow, a hate-filled website bashing Republicans as being hateful.
This site is fail.
"Let's get back to talking about the real issues, like whether we should have a pubic health insurance option or not. It's no use debating with Republicans and their extreme followers - they're not interested."
I think that everyone should be interested in pubic health.
Blog fail.
Don't you just love how this whole thing is back-firing in their faces!? SWEET!!! And there's no more disputing it…. liberals (socialists) are the perennial losers in the arena of ideas. They don't even have the brains to debate. If they did, they would be conservative.
It's time they left our land and went to Cuba where they belong.
Okay, Joe, I understand that you're conservative and you're just all about it, but saying that all liberals are stupid and can't debate adequately? Please.
I'm liberal, and YES, I think that the option that they're pushing for healthcare right now is flawed. I wouldn't support it as a plan if it were enacted as it is now. Please don't act like all liberals are stupid and can't think for themselves just because you've argued with maybe four or five on this decidedly liberal website that is clearly propaganda to get current legislation passed.
Honestly, the biggest problem with the whole debate is that people can't take a step back and form their own ideas. Everyone looks to a party and says "OH GOD THOSE BADDIES MUST BE WRONG IN EVERY SINGLE WAY."
Sigh. Washington was right when he said partisanship was a bad idea.
I'm being inflammatory with my comments as a way to illustrate what we (the folks who preferred Bush to Gore and Kerry) have had to deal with over the last 8 years… and counting. We've been told that all Republicans are greedy hate mongers who are homophobic and sexist and racist…. all at the same time. I've known a lot of Republicans in my day and none of them were anything like that but still they had to carry those labels.
Also, my experience has been that once you put up a good argument to a die-hard lefty, they just spout off a few over used platitudes and walk away. And trust me Brandon, I've searched and searched for an opponent who is worthy but I've had no luck. In other words, I've never met a Hippie or a commie or an Obammunist (all kinda the same thing really) who can put up a real debate and make their point without getting personal and calling Bush an imbecile. That's all. I'm sure you are a real smart guy Brandon and I'm not saying you are stupid. Just Hippies… they are the real stupid ones. And like I said before….
here's the quote-
… "Either way, we don't want the state to be so controlling, be it commie or Nazi. And if you follow the path taken by the Nazis (who WERE socialist which, is just the little sister of the ugly and fat communist), you should be able to find some frightening similarities with the "Enviro-fascists", the "Progressive/(regressive) Statists" and the Secular Humanists"… all of which have a little too much in common with Stalin, Trotsky, Castro and Chavez. They all seem to fall under the "liberal" label and yet they couldn't be farther from the true liberalistic philosophy. Liberals believe in individual rights, free speech and small governments. The "Statist" morons who are causing so much trouble around the world, are opposed to all of these liberal ethics. One more reason why I believe 'Hippie' is short for HYPOCRITE."
(This Hippie thing has been spreading around the world like a bad rash for too many moons.)
"One more thing… "it's funny how liberals are liberal about everything but liberty." I can't remember who said that but he couldn't have been more correct."
So, are you really a liberal? If so then you shouldn't support this bill because it will eventually lead to total control of our doctors and their decisions. What makes you think it WOULDN'T lead to that?
Remember, Obama is the snake who says… "Oh no, I'm not a bad snake. I'm a good snake… yeah! No really, these fangs are useless, now just come a little bit closer so I can see you better…. Mr. Mouse."
*** To all the HIPPIE MORONS out there, this is how the SNAKE gets his dinner and NO, he's not a vegetarian!
This site is disappointing. Reading the comments is like standing in a third grade classroom. Why is it that people assume they have they right to be degrading and mean when they encounter someone who disagrees with them. I have read all of the comments here and I hardly came across one that didn't devolve into shouting or name calling. This will not solve our problems. Belief is a dangerous thing. Its blinds people to everything except their own ideas. The problem that no one wants to talk about is that healthcare is expensive. Yes the cost is driven up by malpractice and insurance fraud and all those things but the actual costs of most treatments are expensive. Simply taking away these things will not all of a sudden make healthcare cheap. No one can afford chemotherapy on their own. Even the cost of a simple x-ray is enormous. Modern technology is an amazing thing. However it comes with a cost. We need to decide as a society are advanced medical technologies available only to those who can afford them? If the answer is yes then there is no debate. However, if the answer runs a little deeper then the next question is who pays for it? Also, for those of you opposed to paying for others, this has been said before but you already do. Do you smoke? if so then I and many others will be paying for your treatment when you develop a smoking related disease. Now, I'm not saying you should not be allowed to smoke. However, chances are you will not be able to afford the full cost of treatment and will be relying on your insurance which is partially paid for by others. I now i did not propose many solutions and probably engaged in some negativism myself. Yet I implore others, keep the debate open, if you only have hate and negative things to say, say them somewhere else
I know it's been said before, but it does need repeating,
Joe American, you are a total idiot. You are displaying the exact kind of close-minded hatred this site was set up to counteract.
Hey "Mork", is that all you've got? Can't you think of anything else to say?
(I'm always fascinated with the sight of all these mental midgets angrily bouncing off my ankles)
I suppose you didn't read the original statements made by the webmaster, who is (obviously) a left leaning Obamaton like yourself. Please look at the this… (you boob)
"The Republican party is trying to change the conversation and kill health care. Along with their lobbyist friends, using inflammatory lies about health care reform, they're whipping their political base into a rage. That base, duly enraged, has been armed with disruptive tactics and told to yell and scream at their elected representatives. And thus, you get this:
***A group of 3 photos of hard working Americans, peacefully exercising their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to assemble, while trying to stop this radical take-over by the commies in D.C. But OH NO!!!! Those SOCIALIST FREAKS DON'T LIKE IT!!! (fools like Jen, Bob, Linus Bern and Mr. "Mork" over here as well as those who made this site)
…Thus, the FAILephant. Carried along by tea bags, the angry Republican party presents no solutions, only rage. It's an epic failure of politics, and it's dragging our country's discourse down. It's no use debating with Republicans and their extreme followers - they're not interested."
OK Mork, that sounds like mud slinging to me but I know you're too deaf, dumb and blind to see it. But at least you still have your sense of taste. I know you do because you obviously hate the flavor of your own medicine. You see, I'm just fighting fire with fire and it's about time the Anti-Bush crowd gets to see what it's like to have their leader insulted at every turn. What comes around goes around. Too bad for you. Have you seen those new "IMPEACH OBAMA" bumper stickers yet?
"I know it's been said before, but it does need repeating."
"ALL HIPPIES ARE STUPID! They all have mud in their heads and they can't do anything better than throw someone else's mud while telling you that YOU are an idiot for throwing mud, even after the web site was set up to throw mud at the Republicans and conservatives who are throwing mud at a man who's head is full of mud… etc."
-Joe American
"I know it's been said before, but it does need repeating."
"Hippie = Hypocrite"
-Joe American
Mork, you are quite simply, ill prepared to debate with an intellectual giant of my magnitude. Come back and try again later, if you can. =)
Nanu nanu, shazbut.
PS- I don't care how good he is at reading the tele-prompter. On his own, Barry is an IDIOT!!! He replaces wisdom and bright ideas with, "Ummm"… and "Uhhhh"…. and "Well you see"… and "Uhhh, you know".
Turnspeak propaganda, a technique of Goebbels, refined by the Soviets and perfected by the PLO is to j'accuse your enemies of the very crime you are committing.
This site is so epically FAIL that it's a wonder it doesn't disappear in sulfurous smoke. Accusing conservatives and average Americans of violence and hate! GOOD LORD … it's a wonder God doesn't smite you with lightening for so nakedly twisting Reality. The Left is BUILT on violence and intimidation.
Sure, Republicans, nice old white haired ladies, elderly men, average American Moms and Dads are the ones leg-breaking (like union thugs), "disrupting" (like every freakazoid liberal passionate idiot, think Code Pink and Earth First), being Nazis - this is so rich - Obama and the Democrat's Plan is a direct copy of the National Socialist Health Care Plan implemented by Adolph Hitler … this website HAS to be the work of Van Johnson (I Hate America) and the criminal degenerate thugs of SEIU. The tip of the Union spear to bring back the Soviet Union but inside our borders.
Decorum and legal implications prevent me from saying what needs to be said. It is incendiary.
Like Robert E Lee said to Lincoln in a letter no Leftist seems to want to recall … "all we ask, is that you obey the Constitution as it is written." Lincoln, like all damn Yankees, ignored this plea. War followed.
I dare you to demonstrate that part of the Constitution of the United States of America which authorizes or even allows for the federal establishment to nationalize and take over 1/5 of our economy, and control our personal choices. You love abortion because it's a woman's right to her own body.
This is my body and I will make my own decisions about it's care and maintenance. Not you, not the Feds, not the Obamanation, not anyone else. Try to square the circle that puts you in.
Perhaps you could make a list of all the violent acts committed by the left in the last 30 years. And I mean actual violent acts, not imagined ones. Then we can compare it to violent acts committed by people on the right, you know, like where they blow up buildings, shoot doctors, empty their guns in liberal churches, kill cops for fear that they are coming to take their firearms. (and remember, god might smite you if you try and twist reality.)
Oh, and just a little history lesson for you. Hitler sent out his brownshirts to beat up trade unionists, and would then claim that the unionists were violent when they defended themselves.
And health care reform is a direct copy of Hitler's plan? Is there no lie so ridiculous that you won't repeat it?
"Do you hear that?
SSSSSSSSSSSSssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssss!
….that's the sound of the TRUTH as it SIZZLES it's way through the Hippie agenda and sets fire to those fascist double-agents and their communist ways"
=)
-Joe American
Republicans have presented many alternatives to rationed care distributed by the failing government machine which cannot deliver efficient DMV procedures or stamps.
The views represented by Libs & Dems are obviously for lazy potheads who don't want to step up to the plate and face the reality of how society works.
Get a job & pay for the things in life that are important to you like many of the motivated immigrants who move to this country and succeed.
The government is not in place to provide.
The government is in place to protect.
If this perspective is too complicated for you to understand, try smoking some more weed, then try again.
Well said Man!
Everyone knows that this bill is the first step to the "single payer" system.
So you idiots who stand on the fact that that so called option was taken out are obviously too ignorant to be part of this discussion.
And everyone knows that single payer is the first step to rounding people up and putting them in internment camps. Anyone who doesn't think so is too ignorant to be part of the discussion, right Mr. Intelligence?
This is the most BS website I have ever been to.
I came here looking for some honest information about healthcare. Instead I find all the hate and discontent that this website accuses the republicans of spewing forth. This website appears to be less about information than it is about inflammatory remarks against the other party. It appears to me that this website, and the people that post on it, are just as much of the problem as they accuse the other side of being. I guess I'll look somewhere else for ACTUAL information and facts.
Let's hurt the 85% for the 15%. Get 'er done! (btw. I'm part of the 15% and i STILL think obama's healthcare plan is going to be a disaster) We need a fix…but this isn't it!
Okay kids… playtime's over… let's get back to the matter-at-hand.
I don't care about jolly-old-England (I'm sure it's a beautiful place)… neither do I care about the travails of other countries - unless it reflects directly into this debate (see below)… so you trolls can crawl back under your respective bridges.
Unless you want to talk about the health care debate.
And… on the topic of said debate, I believe the word you're looking for is 'Socialism'… not 'Communism'… Communism has nothing to do with this debate. Please in future choose your politically ideological words more carefully… or at LEAST please try to keep up with the rest of your fellow GOP members that are on the false-rhetoric train.
And, no, I'm not a Democrat.
In reference to Rancher Jack's rather colorful commentary, I agree with one point: It's your choice.
The proposed health care plan is one of OPTIONS. Your option is… you don't HAVE to utilize it! (ZOMG! Really?)
You are completely free to stick with your current, corrupt, insuring corporation that doesn't have your best interests in mind. Or opt out of it altogether! The Dem's Health Care plan (you know… the 1000 page manuscript that everyone seems to be trying to reference but none of the right-of-right-wingers seem to be able to quote from directly) is a proposed base-line plan for EVERYONE so that people that can't afford to opt into these money-sucking vortexes they call 'insurance companies' can STILL get a decent quality of health-care.
And it's about time. Going to the hospital for an overnight stay because your son broke his leg should not cost you thousands of dollars. Before or after the treatment.
(And… as an aside… just because one is a 'hard working American citizen' doesn't mean that one pays for everything. Doctors make a decent amount of money… you think YOU pay for all that? Think again. There is already a certain amount of government subsidy that happens to carry you through if you could not otherwise afford the entirety of your health-care issue. No one seems to remember that little gem, though… I wonder why… possibly because it undermines their argument?)
Also, plenty of 'hard-working American citizens' make enough money for food, lodging and all their necessities. Fantastic. Uh oh. Junior just got into a car accident and broke his spine. Now what? Gonna do first-aid on him at home and hope he gets better? Or will you get him the treatment he needs and hope you don't have to take out a second mortgage on your house to pay for it?
(I'm betting that the CEOs at AIG and Chrysler aren't worrying quite so much about *their* health care… just another aside…)
There are lots of poor people, sure. I agree that those who are able to ought to pull up their own socks; that said, there are millions of Americans with borderline income levels or living 'average' lives who - if a sudden health-care crisis were to happen - would find themselves helpless, badly in debt or possibly homeless due to the current medical costs and premiums from the insurance companies. This is bad. THIS is what the health care plan is intending to address. THIS is what the debate is about.
Fifty million Americans don't HAVE health care. How many more are in insurance plans they will not be able to afford if an emergency happens? More than you think.
Let's reference the rhetoric argument-of-choice… "dur Dur Canada has bettur health care and tehy are teh Socialists dur!"
Let's clear this up, too.
One, Canada isn't a socialist country… they're what's called a Socialist Democracy… a little more 'left' than our 'Democracy' actually (Dur is taht possibul?). The difference? Look it up. It's their parliamentary structure.
And Two, yes, Virginia, Canada DOES have a better health care system… they treat everyone (at least at the bottom, you know… the "tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free") equally. Uncle Bob's three-day stay in the ICU for his angina attack won't cost you thousands of dollars… you won't see the huge medical bill for granny's hip replacement…
Here in the US, if you had atherosclerosis or diabetes mellitus (you know: some of the many conditions the so-called insurance companies will be watching for in order to NOT insure your health care coverage or push you to a higher premium) would you go to the emergency room if you had an acute attack?
Many people don't.
Many people DIE because they can't afford to go to the hospital, or can't afford the aftermath of the increased premiums as a result of their new condition.
If you knew someone in that situation, wouldn't you want to know they could get the care they needed WHEN they needed it?
As a health-care professional, I for one am glad we're at least TRYING to treat the people that wouldn't otherwise receive health-care or attention had the GOP won the election again…
And… for the record (this one's for you Jack)… accusations of 'turnspeak' are all well and good, but please be careful of whom you quote from and why:
Lincoln was a Republican… *not* a Democrat.
Lee was trying to get Lincoln to back down on his anti-slavery campaign. Slavery, you see, was part of the constitution at the time. Lincoln was the first 'republican' president…. and I daresay unique in that regard… as he did something for the people DESPITE the effect on the wealthy.
i have a friend who cries about not getting free health care BUT, always has money for coffee at Starbucks(sometimes twice daily), her IPHONE($200/month alone), eating out at a sitdown restaurant nearly everyday(again, usually twice), new van, trips to the beach, Mac Book Pro, high speed internet, and cable tv. I pay mine out of pocket for $300/ month. She could subtract any two of the above LUXURIES to get health care but won't. I have a lot of friends that are the same way, and i believe a lot of people without health insurance are the same way. They CHOOSE not buy it in order to support their lifestyle CHOICES. I should not have to pay for others health care when i drive a shitty old car and live in a shitty old house furnished with Goodwill furniture and am eating rice + beans for dinner three times a week, or eat a crappy $1 burger or $.69 burrito.
You are SO right! And let's not forget all the fools out there who smoke weed. Some of them pay 400 or 500 a month for top quality "Head-care" but whine all day and belly ache all night about how they can't afford to pay bills and they will never be able to afford insurance because of the "GREEDY" corporate types.
Once again… "Hippie = Hypocrite"